Spiritual Gifts...Are they still for today?

[shadow 1]

Have you ever heard of the name David Hogan?

[michaeljloomis]

Originally Posted by Shadow 1

Have you ever heard of the name David Hogan?

Not before tonight. And a quick search on Google didn't paint a very good picture of him. I'm always weary when it comes to getting info from a hostile source.

Maybe you could shed some light on the who and what of David Hogan.

Mike

[shadow 1]

He is originally from Louisiana. Thirty years ago God called him into the ministry. H I am a e is a 4 generation pastor. He himself did not believe in the gifts nor in the power of divine miracles. But God.... I love saying that. I have allot of "But Gods" in my life as well. Anyway, today he has started over 8 thousand churches and has himself raised over three hundred people being raised from the dead. Every miracle that you read in the bible has been seen in his ministry. Awesome man of God! I have some awesome videos of him that you're welcome to borrow.

Back to the "But God" in my own life. It will be thirteen years this October, that I wandered into a little church in Oklahoma with bruises up and down my arm which were caused by me sticking a needle in it on a regular basis. Hopelessly lost and suicidal, I stumbled through the door one Sunday morning of a little church. Long story short, I gave my heart to Jesus that day, but I remained and IV drug user for another 3 months. One Sunday morning I came to the alter, the elders gathered around me, anointed me with oil, laid hands on me and prayed for divine deliverance. I felt a weight lift off of the front of my forehead. From that day forward, I never touched another substance. I was completely delivered. What happened? Well, a few people decided to touch heaven on my behalf. Many people said that I would never change. But God..

Isn't He good...from that day on, I have never doubted the power of God. I am a miracle.

[michaeljloomis]

Man...Cool testimony. Yes, I'd like to see whatever you have.

If someone tells me that they've seen miraculous things like limbs growing back or whatnot I will give them the benefit of the doubt and believe them until I learn differently. What I have a hard time with is the lack of anything other than personal or written proof. I guess that is just the skeptic side of me speaking. Maybe that's because of how I was raised. That and probably the influence of the Lutheran Church on the first 14 years of my life.

They always told us to stay away from, "Those Pentacostals." 8)

Mike

[shadow 1]

I've sensed that about you I started on the forum. Your openness I mean.

We are a spirit we have a soul and we live in a body. We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience that will last maybe 80-90 years. The fact that we are spiritual beings helps us to understand why we desire to know and see the supernatural. Occultism is on the rise in the US, have you noticed all the new "supernatural" TV series that are on this year? From physics, to haunted houses, and everything in between. We as people are drawn to it. It's because we are spiritual beings. God has made a way to satisfy these desires that He put within us. His plan is to do so within the church body. The church in America has refused to allow the supernatural to operate within in it's four walls, therefore people have turned to other means to satisfy those desires, its a counterfeit but they don't know that. It's really sad to me to see people turning to the occult to satisfy what God Himself put within them. God is a supernatural God, in fact there is nothing natural about Him. I'm grateful that I was never taught as new believer that the gifts and the supernatural power of God no longer exists. I have seen it from the moment I was saved, and the gifts have attributed to much of my freedom and growth.

Just some thoughts...

[michaeljloomis]

Originally Posted by Shadow 1

I've sensed that about you I started on the forum. Your openness I mean.

We are a spirit we have a soul and we live in a body. We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience that will last maybe 80-90 years. The fact that we are spiritual beings helps us to understand why we desire to know and see the supernatural. Occultism is on the rise in the US, have you noticed all the new "supernatural" TV series that are on this year? From physics, to haunted houses, and everything in between. We as people are drawn to it. It's because we are spiritual beings. God has made a way to satisfy these desires that He put within us. His plan is to do so within the church body. The church in America has refused to allow the supernatural to operate within in it's four walls, therefore people have turned to other means to satisfy those desires, its a counterfeit but they don't know that. It's really sad to me to see people turning to the occult to satisfy what God Himself put within them. God is a supernatural God, in fact there is nothing natural about Him. I'm grateful that I was never taught as new believer that the gifts and the supernatural power of God no longer exists. I have seen it from the moment I was saved, and the gifts have attributed to much of my freedom and growth.

Just some thoughts...

Yes...I'm pretty much open to at least listen to whatever someone has to say. Said openness is a result of my journey from futurism to preterism. Realizing that I could have been so wrong about something that I was holding to so tightly made me realize that I needed to at the least be more open to opposing ideas.

And I think you are spot on about people trying to fulfill spiritual needs. However I have a feeling a lot of people don't so much reject God as much as they reject peoples interpretations of the who and what of God.

Question...Why do you think it is that there is such a lack of physical evidence other than written or verbal testimony of the gifts of the Spirit?

Mike

[shadow 1]

I personally don't think that there is. I have seen them with my own eyes. I believe it' all about positioning. And I trust the testimony of godly men that have both fruit in their lives and in their ministry. One of the greatest fruits, is freedom. Gal 5:1 says "that it was for freedom that Christ set us free".

Isn't He good....?

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by michaeljloomis

Ok...So let's try and narrow down the term, "the last days."

The last days of what?

From my studies the answer that has the least amount of problems is the "last days of the Old Covenant age." Some authors refer to the time that began in Acts 2 and ended with the destruction of Old Covenant Judaism in 70ad, the "Climax of the Covenants." I believe that they use this term for that 40 year period because the Old Covenant was still in effect even though the New Covenant was cut at the cross.

Another thing to consider...In approximately 30ad Peter proclaimed that they were living in the last days. In approximately 65ad Peter said, "the end of all things is at hand." And John said in 1 John 2:18, "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

So what we have is a period of time referred to as "The Last Days," that began in roughly 30ad...And about 40 years later the same guy says that "The end of all things is at hand." Which is confirmed by John stating even more emphatically that it "Is the last hour."

Shortly thereafter the old covenant legal system came to a fiery end in which not one stone was left standing upon another that wasn't thrown down as Jesus prophesied would happen within that generation.

So like I said...It seems like the answer that has the least amount of problems would be the last days of the Old Covenant.

What does anyone else think?

Mike

RE: Miracles

1st of all I still believe in them, I won't limit God.

I've been looking for a scripture, I believe it's in the minor prophets, gonna have to paraphrase it cause I can't find it in my concordance or online, I'm starting to feel like I dreamed it.. LOL!!

Anyways it says something along these line:
"God will show signs and wonders in Israel for forty years and then comes the judgement."
Paraphrased, it might even say miracles or mighty works. Well I can't find that scripture so maybe I dreamed it or something.

One thing is for certain, from 30AD the beginning of Christ's ministry to 70AD, the last time the Apostles ministered in Jerusalem is exactly 40 years of signs and wonders (Miracles) in Natural Israel so it makes it interesting either way you look at it.

Now that doesn't necessarily mean miracles have ceased but there was a period of time for the children of Israel living in those last days to accept Christ and receive grace before judgement came and the Romans wiped them out.

Anyways are you familiar with that passage?

[Rukado]

Originally Posted by shadow 1

He is originally from Louisiana. Thirty years ago God called him into the ministry. H I am a e is a 4 generation pastor. He himself did not believe in the gifts nor in the power of divine miracles. But God.... I love saying that. I have allot of "But Gods" in my life as well. Anyway, today he has started over 8 thousand churches and has himself raised over three hundred people being raised from the dead.

Just visiting one church each Sunday, to visit over 8000 churches it would take over 150 years. It takes longer to establish a church than to visit a church. David Hogan isn't even in the church establishing business. He's in the business of visiting established churches to make money with his Pentecostal lies.

Calling Pentecostalism false feels like announcing at a Star Trek convention that Klingons aren't real. Everyone must know it, but the Trekies don't want anyone raining on their entertainment by voicing it.

Occultism is on the rise in the US

Occultism is very popular in the Pentecostal Church, and is practically universal among rabid Futurists.

[Rukado]

Originally Posted by SteppingStone

Now that doesn't necessarily mean miracles have ceased but there was a period of time for the children of Israel living in those last days to accept Christ and receive grace before judgement came and the Romans wiped them out.

Yes, God gave his people of the circumcision a grace period. Forty years so that the Gospel would be preached to all of them before judgement came. Forty years, like the time in the desert, so that people of the old covenant could pass away.

Peter stood up at Pentecost and claimed that the "Pentecostal" promise was for the "last days". Peter said those days were the last days. That would be the last days of that age, which ended in 70AD.

God can do miracles, but those miracles are not part of Pentecostalism.

BTW, I don't know the verse you're thinking of.